Self defense for children.

Post by chipshop
Greetings all...
I have 3 children (my eldest daughter is 9 and the twins, boy and girl,
are 6) and I'd very much like them to learn so sort of martial art.
Which discipline, in your opinion, would best suit young children?
Forgive me if this is a nonsense question but I know next to nothing
about martial arts.
Regards...
ChipShop

Look for a WTF/Tae Kwon Do school. It is excillent for young people as
there is much jumping, kicking and yelling. Kids love it.

2004-10-11 19:14:45 UTC

Judo.

--
_______________________________________________

DC

"You can not reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason"

"Don't use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice."

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is
never sure." Segal's Law

Mary K. Kuhner

2004-10-11 21:03:14 UTC

Post by chipshop
I have 3 children (my eldest daughter is 9 and the twins, boy and girl,
are 6) and I'd very much like them to learn so sort of martial art.
Which discipline, in your opinion, would best suit young children?
Forgive me if this is a nonsense question but I know next to nothing
about martial arts.

A few questions for you to think about:

--What is available in your local area? You're going to have to
pick among schools within practical reach of your home.

--Why do you want the kids to learn martial arts? Why do they want
to learn them? Self-defense, fitness, sport, self-discipline?

--What are your kids like tempermentally? Aggressive, shy,
energetic, laid-back, quiet, rowdy? Coordinated or clumsy?

I help teach aikido to kids (more accurately, I'm the "crash
test dummy" for their classes) and some take to it nicely while
others want something more direct or flashy. I doubt there is
one best choice for all children.

Age 6 usually works okay for us, but it depends on the child and
his/her attention span. A good class for 6-year-olds should
have a mix of activities so they don't have to do one thing for a
long time. It should be fun and friendly, but with clear safety
rules that are firmly enforced. Even a little training is a
bad thing if it leads to kids beating on each other carelessly;
it's important for their teachers to get across that with
the skills to fight comes a responsibility not to bully others.

Be sure to visit any school that you consider. If you or your
children have a bad gut feeling about it, try somewhere else.
Martial arts are *fun*: if the students generally look
scared or miserable something is wrong. (An occasional moment
of misery comes with the territory, but it shouldn't be the
dominant tone.)

If I had a wide range of arts to choose from, I'd probably
look at judo or tae kwon do first, but just about anything
could work--depending on the child and the teacher.

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

Earl Camembert

2004-10-15 15:09:36 UTC

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
I doubt there is
one best choice for all children.

Yes there is, WTF/Tae Kwan Do. You will ge an instructor that tailors
the class for the age of the children. They are keep busy and don't
get board. They still do learn a martial art even though they don't
know it.

Mary K. Kuhner

2004-10-16 04:53:36 UTC

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
I doubt there is
one best choice for all children.

We have a six-year-old in the kids' aikido classes who is
quiet, deliberate, and thoughtful. He does well at aikido and
enjoys it. I think he could also learn and enjoy tai chi--I never
thought I'd be saying that of a six-year-old. I haven't seen
him try something like TKD but I suspect he might find it
annoyingly violent and noisy.

Kids are individuals. Tailoring the class to ages helps, but the
other six-year-olds I've taught need a very different approach than
this one. (If he weren't so darned small, he'd be better in the
older kids' class because they're more focused.)

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

Earl Camembert

2004-10-16 12:01:07 UTC

Post by Mary K. Kuhner

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
I doubt there is
one best choice for all children.

Noisy perhaps violent not at all. WTF Tae Kwan Do is a sport and not
violent, unless you are a pine board.

Paul

2004-10-18 14:59:50 UTC

Judo.

I agree my four year old son has been doing one hour of judo every week for
the last few months and he loves it. When picking a school I made sure they
had a specific structure for children, that it was as non-aggressive as
possible and let parents watch for no charge (one charged £2 for parents to
sit and watch!) and had a friendly environment.

I picked a school which had British Judo Association instructors who I
informally interviewed before letting them loose on my kid. They are also
very nice people.

Although I personally also do a striking system I didn't think it was a good
idea let children under say 12 do it - something about teaching little kids
to punch each other doesn't appeal to me.

Cheers

Paul

Earl Camembert

2004-10-19 10:36:36 UTC

Judo.

When picking a school I made sure they had a specific structure for children, that it was as
non-aggressive as possible and let parents watch for no charge
(one charged £2 for parents to sit and watch!) and had a friendly environment.

I can see why a school might charge to have a parent sit and watch for
the entire class. It is distracting for the child and they must pay
attention. A parent should always be allowed to look in when ever they
want but not sit and watch a class when there child is training.

Paul

2004-10-19 19:01:28 UTC

Judo.

When picking a school I made sure they had a specific structure for
children, that it was as
non-aggressive as possible and let parents watch for no charge
(one charged £2 for parents to sit and watch!) and had a friendly environment.

Not even for the first few lessons? Bearing in mind the young kids only do
an hour.

Paul

Mary K. Kuhner

2004-10-20 16:01:04 UTC

Post by Earl Camembert
I can see why a school might charge to have a parent sit and watch for
the entire class. It is distracting for the child and they must pay
attention. A parent should always be allowed to look in when ever they
want but not sit and watch a class when there child is training.

It works for us, but we have some parents who *always* watch, so
the kids are used to it and no longer notice. We strongly discourage
parents talking to their kids during class, though.

Siblings are a bigger problem. We lost a dojo window to a
younger sibling of one of our students recently. Non-students don't have
the habit of listening to instructors and obeying safety rules that
the students do; this one got on the mat during the between-class break and
slammed a window right out. No one was hurt, luckily, though sensei
says he nearly had a heart attack. I think we'll have to ban non-students
from the mat.

Incidentally, does anyone know a good low-cost way to put removable
bars on a wooden frame window?

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

Chas

2004-10-21 13:00:51 UTC

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
Incidentally, does anyone know a good low-cost way to put removable
bars on a wooden frame window?

Louver panels- you can get them at any big box home improvement center.
They're used to cover access ports and stuff. If you pay a little more, you
can get ones that pivot kinda like venetian blinds. I've seen them as
unpainted wood and as fully finished in a range of treatments.
They make a bunch of sizes, so you should be able to find something that
fits or can be fitted.

Chas

Zebee Johnstone

2004-10-21 13:01:22 UTC

In rec.martial-arts.moderated on Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:01:04 UTC

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
Siblings are a bigger problem. We lost a dojo window to a
younger sibling of one of our students recently. Non-students don't have
the habit of listening to instructors and obeying safety rules that
the students do; this one got on the mat during the between-class break and
slammed a window right out. No one was hurt, luckily, though sensei
says he nearly had a heart attack. I think we'll have to ban non-students
from the mat.

IT isn't really clear how you can break a window while mucking about on
a mat - which presumably is there to throw people about on. Seems like
an accident waiting to happen to me!

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
Incidentally, does anyone know a good low-cost way to put removable
bars on a wooden frame window?

Weldmesh. No idea what they call it elsewhere, but here weldmesh is
fencing panelling. It's metal rod of ohh...1/4" diameter or so, welded
in a crisscross pattern making rectangular mesh of about 6"x3".
Available usually in 6'x3' panels.

Get something like that, and hang it from hooks screwed into the top of
the windowframe.

Check rural supply shops and places that deal with livestock and larger
animals. Might find a dog cage/run panel system that works the same.

Zebee

SimonD

2004-10-21 11:12:57 UTC

Post by Paul
Although I personally also do a striking system I didn't think it was a good
idea let children under say 12 do it - something about teaching little
kids to punch each other doesn't appeal to me.
Cheers
Paul

I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

Don Wagner

2004-10-22 00:20:08 UTC

Post by SimonD
I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

Lot of kids do very well in boxing as well.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

SimonD

2004-10-22 18:19:51 UTC

Post by SimonD
I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

Lot of kids do very well in boxing as well.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Good point actually. When I was in school, about 20 years ago now, there
were always certain groups of kids that always got in trouble. Same as in
most schools I imagine. In general, these groups were from rough areas. But
kids from those areas who were into boxing never got into fights. I'm not
sure if thats becuase other kids knew not to mess with them, or because they
had worked out their agression in boxing.
Theres a danger in all martial arts of giving the student an over inflated
ego. The no contact sparing can give one a sense of immunity, where as in
boxing you have a good idea of how much it hurts!
But yes, boxing is a good idea. Also, the average boxer tends to be fitter
than the average martial arts student.
SimonD

Don Wagner

2004-10-23 01:07:07 UTC

Post by SimonD
Good point actually. When I was in school, about 20 years ago now, there
were always certain groups of kids that always got in trouble. Same as in
most schools I imagine. In general, these groups were from rough areas. But
kids from those areas who were into boxing never got into fights.

My experience was a little different. One side of my home town
bordered a pretty tough area of an urban NY metro city. A couple of
families that lived in that area had all of their sons go through the
neighborhood boxing programs every summer.

While they didn't usually start the fights, they were more then happy
to beat the living hell out those who did.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Paul

2004-10-23 10:59:37 UTC

Post by SimonD
I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

Lot of kids do very well in boxing as well.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

My father took me to the local boxing club when I was about 13, really good
value at £1.50 a session. Shame I didn't keep it up.

Paul

Donald Link

2004-10-22 00:22:25 UTC

I have 3 grandchildren 6, 7, 10 and they have been taking Karate for
nearly 3 years and next summer they will test for their black belt.
They have never and I repeat never thought about using what they have
learned in any situation except in competion. What the experience has
taught them is confidence that they could handle themselves if the
situation ever come up. In fact, they have never even thought of
telling anyone outside karate class that they know or even know how to
use karate.

Post by SimonD

Post by Paul
Although I personally also do a striking system I didn't think it was a

good

Post by Paul
idea let children under say 12 do it - something about teaching little
kids to punch each other doesn't appeal to me.
Cheers
Paul

I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

Bush

2004-10-25 21:09:28 UTC

... have been taking Karate for
nearly 3 years and next summer they will test for their black belt.

This always gives me the screaming heebie jeebies...

-- Ted Bush

"Pain is my form of self-expression"

Donald Link

2004-10-26 12:56:23 UTC

Post by Bush

... have been taking Karate for
nearly 3 years and next summer they will test for their black belt.

This always gives me the screaming heebie jeebies...
-- Ted Bush
"Pain is my form of self-expression"

I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

Don Wagner

2004-10-27 01:11:10 UTC

Post by Donald Link
I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

I can beat up any kid black belt there is.

So, is fighting skill a measurable factor in a black belt test?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Zebee Johnstone

2004-10-27 09:05:39 UTC

In rec.martial-arts.moderated on Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:11:10 UTC

Post by Donald Link
I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

I can beat up any kid black belt there is.
So, is fighting skill a measurable factor in a black belt test?

Older black belts I've talked to see it as a marker that you've got the
basics down, and now you have to develop your style and understanding.

Similar to what my fencing master calls "not being a beginner anymore".

The fencing master's exam is a full day involving fencing, teaching,
and an oral examination on fencing theory and teaching, but it's still
only seen as "now you start to be a fencing master" not "now you are one".

(and a fencing master isn't always a top notch fighter, they are a trainer
and educator of fighters, so it's not quite the same thing as black belt))

Apparently the tradition is that you aren't considered a full member of
the fraternity till you have trained a fencing master yourself, until
your apprentice has passed the exam.

perhaps that's a good marker of a black belt, that they've trained
someone to black belt level?

Zebee

Don Wagner

2004-10-27 20:20:27 UTC

Post by Zebee Johnstone
perhaps that's a good marker of a black belt, that they've trained
someone to black belt level?

Still there is no definition of what a black belt is other then X
amount of time and money spent on the process.

If kids are given black belts, is it the same rank as an adult? If so
is physical proficiency at all required? How about fighting?

Grasping the material in a performance art is not the same as being
about to function well in a fighting style.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Zebee Johnstone

2004-10-27 21:47:57 UTC

In rec.martial-arts.moderated on Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:20:27 UTC

Post by Zebee Johnstone
perhaps that's a good marker of a black belt, that they've trained
someone to black belt level?

Still there is no definition of what a black belt is other then X
amount of time and money spent on the process.
If kids are given black belts, is it the same rank as an adult? If so
is physical proficiency at all required? How about fighting?
Grasping the material in a performance art is not the same as being
about to function well in a fighting style.

I expect it depends a lot on which style and who "owns" it.

The term "black belt" is certainly meaningless these days. Has to be
qualified a lot.

I have a qualification from a group who do fencing. It's a big thing *in
that group*, it's not on anyone else's radar :) IT has (by historical
accident more than anything) a title that is sorta like "Maestro", but
ain't no way I'm in my Maestro's league. I wouldn't call myself that
name, but there are people in some branches who do. Because, I suspect,
they haven't met "the real thing".

Is the organisation giving these kids black belts also giving them to
adults? Does it, itself, consider them the same, to the point of
pairing them in competition?

Does it do competition at all?

What is a suitable criteria for black belt? Is a 5'2" 120lb adult woman
a "black belt" if she can't hold her own against a 6'4" 220lb man? If
she is, how does that compare to kids?

Zebee

Mary K. Kuhner

2004-10-28 12:52:07 UTC

Post by Zebee Johnstone
What is a suitable criteria for black belt? Is a 5'2" 120lb adult woman
a "black belt" if she can't hold her own against a 6'4" 220lb man? If
she is, how does that compare to kids?

Not only do the answers vary among arts and schools, it seems to me
that they *have* to vary. It may be reasonable to expect the woman
described to hold her own at aikido, but deeply unreasonable at sumo.
There are at least three things rank can mean--capability,
skill, teaching ability--and the relative proportions will vary
among arts according to their philosophy.

It's a pity that pop culture has settled on "black belt" as a
meaningful cross-art standard. I think the reality is that there
is not, and cannot be, any such standard.

Because of the pop-culture associations, though, I do cringe at
giving children black belts unless they are remarkably capable at
self-defense. We stop at brown, probably for this reason.

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

KarateGurl

2004-10-29 13:14:40 UTC

Post by Zebee Johnstone
In rec.martial-arts.moderated on Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:20:27 UTC

Post by Zebee Johnstone
perhaps that's a good marker of a black belt, that they've trained
someone to black belt level?

Still there is no definition of what a black belt is other then X
amount of time and money spent on the process.
If kids are given black belts, is it the same rank as an adult? If so
is physical proficiency at all required? How about fighting?
Grasping the material in a performance art is not the same as being
about to function well in a fighting style.

I expect it depends a lot on which style and who "owns" it.
The term "black belt" is certainly meaningless these days. Has to be
qualified a lot.
I have a qualification from a group who do fencing. It's a big thing *in
that group*, it's not on anyone else's radar :) IT has (by historical
accident more than anything) a title that is sorta like "Maestro", but
ain't no way I'm in my Maestro's league. I wouldn't call myself that
name, but there are people in some branches who do. Because, I suspect,
they haven't met "the real thing".
Is the organisation giving these kids black belts also giving them to
adults? Does it, itself, consider them the same, to the point of
pairing them in competition?
Does it do competition at all?
What is a suitable criteria for black belt? Is a 5'2" 120lb adult woman
a "black belt" if she can't hold her own against a 6'4" 220lb man? If
she is, how does that compare to kids?
Zebee

My instructor doesn't give a black belt to any child under the age of
18, I think, unless he or she is phenomenal at Ju-jitsu. Personally,
I don't believe that children should have black-belts because Once you
get a black belt, you don't have to go on and earn your 2nd degree
black belt. It's a natural stopping point. If a child is awarded a
black belt and stops his, or her instruction, what's the chances that
he, or she will remember the techniques correctly in a situation when
they're getting atacked, and there's no instructor to tell you what to
do? Even if a child is awarded a black belt, as an instructor I would
to suggest to them that they review the techniques constantly.
Karate Gurl

Don Wagner

2004-10-29 19:51:48 UTC

Post by KarateGurl
It's a natural stopping point.

With the kids the natural stopping point is
Soccor/LaCrosse/Band/Scouts/Key Club/etc.

MA is one of probably 5 programs that they are constantly rotating
through.

Post by KarateGurl
If a child is awarded a
black belt and stops his, or her instruction, what's the chances that
he, or she will remember the techniques correctly in a situation when
they're getting atacked, and there's no instructor to tell you what to
do?

This now comes back to fighting ability and realistic training.
Neither of which has anything to do with what rank you are.

Post by KarateGurl
Even if a child is awarded a black belt, as an instructor I would
to suggest to them that they review the techniques constantly.

Same as with any skill based ability.

In the mid-80's I was training at a Shorin Ryu school. They had a
nidan who was in his mid-30's and showed up twice a month expecting
to be able to mix it up with some of us regulars who put in close to
9hr in the dojo alone.

After a while we realized that this guy might have been good once, but
now was a blowhard who didn't bother training worth a damn. Every
chance we got we would try to fight him. He would puff and wheez his
way out of the fight and we actually go him to puke one hot summer
night. After that he stuck with kata.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Earl Camembert

2004-10-28 12:51:44 UTC

Post by Don Wagner
If kids are given black belts, is it the same rank as an adult? If so
is physical proficiency at all required? How about fighting?

In WTF/TKD the black belt for someone under eighteen is not the same a
for an adult. They don't have to be addressed as sir.

KarateGurl

2004-10-28 18:52:29 UTC

Post by Donald Link
I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

I can beat up any kid black belt there is.
So, is fighting skill a measurable factor in a black belt test?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Personally, I don't think that you could beat up a "kid black belt"
unless you were a black belt, or higher. If you are a black belt and
took on a "kid black belt" the kid would use leverage, and technique
to do the best he, or she could to defend his, or herself. My
instructor, who teaches Goshinjutsu, says that self-defense is about
leverage, not strength. I agree with him.
Karate Gurl

Bush

2004-10-28 21:24:07 UTC

I have trouble with anyone receiving a black belt that's "watered down"
due to age or physical ability.

Having said that, however, I recognize that for some, the body just CANNOT
do what others can. So. Do we 'penalize' them for this or recognize and
reward their effort and commitment w/the belt? Some say, "it's not that
you reach THIS POINT, it's that you went from WHERE YOU STARTED to
SOMEPLACE FAR FURTHER skillwise. This viewpoint, though, results in
blackbelts of a tremendous variety/range, skillwise, and can make others
view their belts as "less worthy."

But my original "heebie jeebie" comment was directed more at the sense
that the kids had been studying X years and with Y more months, would have
a belt. Wondered if the place was called SMITH'S BLACKBELT ACADEMY
[factory].

Post by Donald Link
I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

I can beat up any kid black belt there is.
So, is fighting skill a measurable factor in a black belt test?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

-- Ted Bush

"Pain is my form of self-expression"

Chas

2004-10-30 05:12:30 UTC

Post by Bush
I have trouble with anyone receiving a black belt that's "watered down"
due to age or physical ability.

A BB simply means that one is familiar with the curriculum and can continue
practicing on one's own, essentially without further instruction- nothing
essentially to do with 'fighting', except as an expression of one's
familiarity with the basic technic of the system.
The whole question is 'BB in what?'. What is the curriculum in which the BB
is rated proficient?

Chas

Ewan Villiers

2004-10-29 00:54:53 UTC

Post by Donald Link
I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

I can beat up any kid black belt there is.
So, is fighting skill a measurable factor in a black belt test?

It would be nice if this was true but theres an awful lot of badly
trained blackbelts out there. I'd have to say I've never seen a
sub 18 year old blackbelt who would win an actual fight with me
(I have seen some who could hand me my ass in a tournament
where the rules were set to favour their strengths).

Having said that I've me several little old men who scare the hell out
of me. I think you'll find that kids and teenagers don't normally
have the focus or skill to practice the way your instructor says a
black belt should and many child "Black Belts" get the belt because
otherwise they would quit bored after a couple of years with no
apparent rise in status.

Ewan

Don Wagner

2004-10-29 13:14:50 UTC

Post by KarateGurl
Personally, I don't think that you could beat up a "kid black belt"
unless you were a black belt, or higher.

Want to bet? The entire grading process is totally secular. With
adults the true guage of skill is fighting.

Post by KarateGurl
My instructor, who teaches Goshinjutsu, says that self-defense is about
leverage, not strength. I agree with him.

SD is about perception, threat assessment and verbal skills needed to
de-escalate a hostile situation. About 10% is physical and of that a
good 90% can be countered by brute strength.

....but yeah, about 1% of SSD is about leverage.
;-)
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Robert Low

2004-10-30 05:12:07 UTC

Post by KarateGurl
Personally, I don't think that you could beat up a "kid black belt"
unless you were a black belt, or higher.

You might want to bear in mind that some arts (most notoriously
taekwondo, but it's not alone) will award black belt grades to
kids under the age of ten.

Post by KarateGurl
If you are a black belt and
took on a "kid black belt" the kid would use leverage, and technique
to do the best he, or she could to defend his, or herself.

It takes a hell of a lot of leverage to make up the difference
of a factor of five in bodyweight and in strength. You're deluding
yourself if you think a child black belt can take on an adult
who's moderately fit and just willing to cause pain; more seriously,
anybody who teaches a martial art to a kid and tells them that
is putting them at greater risk, not lesser. A well-trained child
attacked by an adult has a somewhat better chance than an untrained
one of breaking free and getting away. But he's not going to win
any fights with an adult.

Of course, if by 'kid' you mean 'fifteen year old', that's different;
I'm talking (and I'm pretty sure Don was too) about pre-adolescents.

2004-11-02 02:14:15 UTC

Post by Donald Link
I suppose you would have the same feeling if kids this age were smart
enough to go to college. It does not take much to be an outstanding
child these days.

I can beat up any kid black belt there is.
So, is fighting skill a measurable factor in a black belt test?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Personally, I don't think that you could beat up a "kid black belt"
unless you were a black belt, or higher.

If they've trained in a no contact or touch martial arts, then the
"kid blck belt" has no experience. It's kinda like practicing baseball
without a ball. "Your throw looked great." "Why, thank, you, your
catch was beautiful.

If you are a black belt and

Post by KarateGurl
took on a "kid black belt" the kid would use leverage, and technique
to do the best he, or she could to defend his, or herself. My
instructor, who teaches Goshinjutsu, says that self-defense is about
leverage, not strength. I agree with him.

Muscular strength is needed to apply leverage and execute technique.
In the absence of muscular contractions, you are a floor-ridden heap
of flesh and bones.

Earl Camembert

2004-10-22 23:59:34 UTC

Post by SimonD

Post by Paul
Although I personally also do a striking system I didn't think it was a

good

Post by Paul
idea let children under say 12 do it - something about teaching little
kids to punch each other doesn't appeal to me.
Cheers
Paul

I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

Because Judo is called the gentile art don't be fooled. They will
learn how to break arms and chock people into unconsciousness. In Tae
Kwan Do children do not spar until they are older and then only if
they want to.

Paul

2004-10-23 21:44:05 UTC

Post by SimonD

Post by Paul
Although I personally also do a striking system I didn't think it was a

good

Post by Paul
idea let children under say 12 do it - something about teaching little
kids to punch each other doesn't appeal to me.
Cheers
Paul

I agree totally. I love Karate, but I'll be starting my son on Judo. The
potential for trouble in school, as I saw happen to a few young students, is
too great.
SimonD

The children's syllabus within the British Judo Association prohibits the
teaching of these techniques to children until there early teens. Other
organisations syllabi may differ but bearing in mind the vulnerability of
young bones that are still growing I think it would be silly.

Paul

Leslie Richardson

2004-10-31 03:07:21 UTC

Post by Paul

Post by Earl Camembert
Because Judo is called the gentile art don't be fooled. They will
learn how to break arms and chock people into unconsciousness. In Tae
Kwan Do children do not spar until they are older and then only if
they want to.

I wonder when that got added?

As a pre-teen in the sixties, I learned a *few* choking techniques
.... still remember the rather shocked look on a (North American)
teachers face after a fight when I assured him that what I'd done was
safe, since I'd counted to ten then released my (unconscious) opponent
.... (must of been around ten or eleven then).

Arm breaks I can see banning from younger students, but chokes are
integral to ground-fighting ... leave them out at the beginning of
training, and the I fear the students are starting out on the wrong
track.

Leslie

Don Geddis

2004-10-23 21:50:45 UTC

Most Judo clubs don't allow young children to do submissions at all (just
throws and positioning). And older children often are only allowed chokes
(which are safe), but not joint locks.

By the way: isn't the art spelled "Tae Kwon Do", not "Kwan"? You claim to
study the thing. It seems odd that you'd get it wrong.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis ***@bjj.org http://bjj.org/

Bush

2004-10-12 13:03:01 UTC

Visit many different styles/schools. Take any and all free/introductory
courses you're offered. Sit in on a few kids classes at each to see what
the instruction/instructors are like. Go with what seems to fit your kids
best.

Having said that, I'd suggest you look at Tae Kwon Do.

a) There tend to be more schools (ergo, choices) available

b) It's a good intro art, because, as I noted elsewhere, it provides a
good kicking foundation that will benefit them if/when they switch to an
Art that focuses less on the feet

c) less emphasis on the internal/meditative aspects of the martial arts,
which'll help the littles stay focused/involved in what's going on.

We took kids as young as 5-6 in our Shorin ryu (Okinawan karate -- a
precursor to Shotokan) school, but I was never sure what they got out of
it. Unsure enough, in fact, that I do not intend to put my child into
formal training 'til he's 6, at least.

Required Caveat: Unless, of course, he shows remarkable dedication and
absorbtion of what I give him while playing.

***
Warning: If you feel pressured to sign up with a school, it's a good sign
that that's not the school for you!!
***

Good luck!

-- Ted Bush

"Pain is my form of self-expression"

Neil Gatenby

2004-10-12 20:20:11 UTC

Judo

Striking arts are less than ideal, since the kids take YEARS to get
effective against an adult

Softer arts are less than ideal, since they take so long to get good at

Weapon arts are not good, since you don't want your kids carrying knives

Judo gets them used to getting knocked about and escaping from grabs - both
of which might be useful in kid-v-kid or adult-v-kid situations. Judo
doesn't tell them they can do X or Y or Z (impressive, amazing things) - its
got a small simple syllabus.

This is not subjective - my main art is soft (JJJ) and since 99 I've been
doing a striking art (Wado). But Judo is always what I recommend for kids.
Let them get into real fighting when they're older.

HTH

Neil

Neil Gatenby

2004-10-22 11:07:02 UTC

Post by Donald Link
I have 3 grandchildren 6, 7, 10 and they have been taking Karate for
nearly 3 years and next summer they will test for their black belt.

Wow, seems very quick and very young. I wish them luck.

Post by Donald Link
They have never and I repeat never thought about using what they have
learned in any situation except in competion.

I'm glad my Grandad never know half the thoughts that went through my head,
when I was 10 ;-)

Post by Donald Link
What the experience has
taught them is confidence that they could handle themselves if the
situation ever come up.

So long as they are not over-confident, that is excellent.

Post by Donald Link
In fact, they have never even thought of
telling anyone outside karate class that they know or even know how to
use karate.

Wise.

Bye for now
Neil

Neil Gatenby

2004-10-29 13:15:58 UTC